Overrated PDX restaurants
Following in the footsteps of the recent controversy surrounding Saucebox (chronicled on An Exploration of Portland Food and Drink), Nick Zukin’s (extramsg.com) newly-released Portland Metro Food Tip Sheet and Dining Guide also contains a list of restaurants to avoid. And on that list? Readers who followed the great barbecue debate here (which I now can’t find - help, Pieman!) won’t be surprised to hear that Big Daddy’s BBQ is there. And I’m also not surprised at some of the other restaurants listed there, based on what I’ve heard, read and/or experienced myself (Rivers, Legin and Harrison)
But Hoda’s? Mint? Sweet Basil (while the dreadfully average Sukhothai emerges as one of the top three Thai restaurants, no less.) Really?
(Nick’s got his own message board if you want to challenge his findings - or feel free to list your opinions here, of course…)
Related posts:
it looks like extramsg has some comments to go through, so i’ll post here. apologies for replication.
Beer - Amnesia Brewing or Horse Brass
Wine - Southpark
NW Cuisine - Higgins
Burrittos - Laughing Planet
Burger - Higgins
Breakfast - Gravy
As I agree with most of your places to avoid, i do have to disagree with Legin - extramsg’s list is for new people to pdx. if you’re a newbie, you have to experience legin’s 300 item menu just once.
cya.
Hoda’s: Portland has a lot of decent Lebanese. Hoda’s isn’t one. I’ve been here several times and it’s just not very good at all. I’ve actually had things I found inedible, which if you saw my gut, you’d realize is very rare. Some of the worst pita in town, despite coming out warm. It’s like Wonder Bread pita. They’d do better by going to any Halal market and buying some pita out of the frig and re-heating it. In a conversation about the place online a while back, I wrote this:
“I’ve been to Hoda’s a few times and once relatively recently and I find it barely better than Garbonzo’s or those places in the mall. There’s not one restaurant Lebanese in Portland I can think of that isn’t as good or better and I’ve been to a lot of them. Toss in all those little places that never get mentioned such as La Villa, Riyadh’s, Cedar’s, etc. They’re all as good or better. Al Amir and Abou Karim — better. But Hoda’s is in Belmont and carries a lot of nostalgia for people. What place is worse than Hoda’s? Something’s askew. Either we have standards that don’t differentiate enough or Portland’s Lebanese is just that consistent. I tend to think the former when it comes to Hoda’s.”
Mint: I don’t drink or go to places where drinking is the major endeavor very often, so I haven’t been to Mint. Put the tip sheet isn’t just a result of my preferences. Some of it was created by reading reviews/reports from people I trust. If you want to see the source for the Mint inclusion, see these links:
http://www.portlandfood.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=78
http://www.portlandfood.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=372
Sweet Basil: I don’t understand the popularity. I’ve been to the one on Broadway a few times. They try to make it look pretty, but the flavors aren’t there at all. And further, I’ve gotten half-cooked frozen vegetables, etc, and the dishes are just the typical stuff or poorly devised fusiony things that one can get much better at places like Lemongrass or Typhoon. I put Sukhothai on the list because it has some dishes that others don’t do and because their specialties they do well. Their angel wings, eg, are great. Their khao soi is easily the best in town, imo. I wouldn’t go there for pad thai or green curry, necessarily, though. I was tempted to put a more consistent place like Tuk Tuk, Thai Noon, or Arawan on the list, but I decided Typhoon and Cha Ba cover that angle. So I went with something that could use the business (these others are all quite busy) and has a few more unique menu items. (I really wish Tuk Tuk would do some more Lao dishes since the owners are Lao.)
Legin: I wouldn’t want anyone to come to Portland and then base their opinion of our Chinese on Legin. They’re going to have a tough enough time finding good Chinese. If they think Legin is among our best, they may never go out again.
Dieselboi: I assume those are recs for good places, not over-rated places, right? I wish Higgins had fries with their burger. And their bun is one of the worst in town. The thing has the texture of supermarket buns and dissolves in your hand. I really like the smooth, flavorful meat, though, and the house made pickles. I’ve never been to Laughing Planet.
(It’s actually Zukin, btw, just in case people feel like leaving nasty messages on my answering machine.)
Apologies yet again, Nick - I’ve some weird block when it comes to spelling your last name correctly (fixed it last night, for those wondering what we’re talking about…)
I’m one of those strange birds who doesn’t much care for fries with burgers, so Higgins works well for me.
I haven’t been to Hoda’s since shortly after it opened, but I do remember getting excellent pita there (and I was with someone who’d done extensive traveling in the middle east who concurred.) Perhaps something’s changed?
And I can testify that Sukhothai needs the business (it’s very near my house - and yes, I’ve been there more than once accordingly.)
Overhyped:two Portland eating traditions that have seen better days:
Ringside.. last two times I have been, steak was overcooked and fatty at the edges. And I am talkin’ ’bout a filet at that!!
And Cassady’s: never got all the buzz about that one. What was this, the Doug Fir of 1983?
Overhyped:two Portland eating traditions that have seen better days:
Ringside.. last two times I have been, steak was overcooked and fatty at the edges. And I am talkin’ ’bout a filet at that!!
And Cassady’s: never got all the buzz about that one. What was this, the clarklewis of 1983?
I’ve got a challenge for you Betsy. Go get some pita at one of the Halal markets in the chilled section and warm it in your oven and try it. Then go to Karam and get the whole wheat pita and try it. Then go to Hoda’s. I think you’ll find the difference striking. Though, I should add that Portland’s pita is probably the weakest part of its Lebanese restaurants.
I wish places would give the option, but Higgins charges just as much as most anywhere else for their burger, but doesn’t even have the option of fries. Of course, many of these places seem to have a real problem putting out a good french fry. Wildwood’s are limp or borderline limp, eg. Only Cafe Castagna’s fries rival or overtake those at fast food joints (including places like Mike’s Drive-In). Ken’s Place does roasted potatoes instead.
Hey, if you ever see Sukhothai up for sale, tell me. That spot has potential.
I’ll take a Cafe Castagna burger over any other in town. The bun is good, the meat organic and just the right grind, heck, even the pickles are homemade. The fries are really good. I like the crispy shoestring style.
Fooddude, I’m in the process of surveying bistro burgers. I’ve eaten more than I can count in the last month. I have a couple issues with Cafe Castagna’s burger: 1) it’s smaller than most, 2) they don’t put enough cheddar on and it’s pretty bland cheddar that doesn’t hold up to the burger, 3) only sweet pickles, 4) it’s no better than most other bistro burgers, except for the fries.
I honestly think most of the bistro burgers I’ve had have been better (not including fries). Ken’s, right down the road, does a better burger. It’s bigger and it has better caramelization. Sweet pickles and pickled zucchini slices. It’s essentially the same bun, but without the sesame seeds. They put about twice the amount of cheese on, which is good for these big burgers. Also, it’s cheaper. But they don’t do fries. They do roasted potatoes. For Castagna, it’s all about those fries.
i have to defent higgins. i am goint to cafe castagna soon, so if it find the burger better, i’ll recant. with higgins, it isn’t about fries, it’s about the burger. a friend put it best - the burger is so good and the meat so flavorful that you don’t need to put anything but cheeze on it. no ketchup, no mustard etc. also, the burger is rather substantial, so if it had fries, i think it would overpower the eater.
cafe castagna does have amazing fries - that i know for sure, i just didn’t have the burger when we were there.
another suggestion that comes to mind - awhile back, we went to gravy on n. mississippi for evening happy hour and i had the $3 painted hills burger. i remember exclaiming how good it was. i think i’ll go back soon to confirm, but others should check it out.
MSG, I think I’ve tried every reputedly good burger in town but still like Castagna the best. Admittedly I have never had it with cheddar cheese so can’t comment on that. For me it is the amazing pickles, the quality bun, and those perfect fries that put it over the edge. Ken’s was a good burger, but to me it is all about the overall experience, and fries are a part of that. I also didn’t like the coarseness of his grind. That being said, I hate paying $13.00 for a burger. I worked for Intel for years and used to go to Helvetia now and then, but never thought it was all that great ñ nice and sloppy, but not very high quality meat.
We go back and forth so much we are starting to sound like the Siskel and Ebert of Portland food. Lol… maybe we should start a debate board.
As an avid foodie, I agree with DIESELBOI about his burger comment but would have to take it one step further by stating that a good burger is so good that it doesn’t need anything…not even cheese to be a good burger.
I have had burgers at every imaginable place in Portland. There is no doubt that the Higgins burger and Ken’s burger is great.. but by far I would have to say Castagna’s burger is number one.
The Castagna burger is the juiciest and most flavorful burger with the perfect buns and condiments. Yes, those are the best homemade pickles I have had so far. One has to note that the Castagna burger is stacked thick (and still juicy) and not wide.. giving the impression that it is a small burger.. but I guarantee that you wont leave the place feeling hungry after the burger.
Overall size does not make an excellent burger… so don’t be fooled by large wide burgers. All three burgers mentioned in the comments above are excellent.. but in my opinion.. the Castagna burger is the best. I see cheese as a flavor enhancer so I always have the first burger with no cheese to see if the flavors of the burger can stand up by its own. Then go back to have it again with cheese to see how the overall flavor changes. Sometimes the cheese makes an ok burger taste great. And sometimes cheese makes a great burger taste excellent!
Jake’s, when they’re out of whole crab (almost made my wife cry last night). Really is one of the best things about ‘em…
Campbell’s BBQ: Have to pick a fight with Nick, just because it’s fun. Between Campbell’s and Cannon’s, I pick Cannon’s. I won’t even start another Big Daddy conversation, since I know that I love them and I know that many people don’t.
Ringside: If you’re going to have steak, go to Ruth’s Chris, El Gaucho, or Sayler’s. Haven’t had Morton’s, but I assume they’re at least better than Ringside. Ringside is hideous.
FD, I don’t disagree on the overall experience thing. That’s why of all the “bistro burgers” I put Castagna on the list.
The reason I put Mike’s and Helvetia ahead aren’t so much because the burgers are better quality, but because when people think of burgers, I think they think of these true fast food/drive-in and tavern style/priced foods first. I’m actually not a big fan of Helvetia’s burger (and I don’t like their fries too much — too limp), but a lot of people like that sloppy mess and huge size. The picks on my list aren’t just my favorites. Originally, I had Foothill Broiler in there instead of Helvetia, but they’re gone now. I’m very disappointed there isn’t a fast food level, under $5 burger that’s flame broiled and still high quality. About the only thing out there is Burger King. Foothill had excellent fries — every bit as good as Cafe Castagna’s — and used quality meat, but doing the thin burgers grilled. They had nice chars on them and because they were thin, you could get multiple layers of burgers. This adds to the flavor because it’s the Maillard effect that gives a burger its true greatness. More surface area “caramelized” means more flavor. They toasted the buns nicely and then had a condiments bar with very fresh ingredients. Even the tomatoes were always nicely ripe there. I miss that place already.
I think the best pickles I’ve had so far are at Higgins. Higgins has a lot of variety to their pickles and they’re quite tasty. I think for this survey, they had pickled cauliflower, cucumbers, and fennel. (I wish they had their pickled fiddlehead ferns, which are terrific.) Most of these places seem to be doing house made pickles of some sort. Even Red Star does pickled green tomatoes and other vegetables. Caprial’s even does their own pickles and relish. I do wish some places would expand beyond the sweet pickles, though. I prefer a sour pickle. Bluehour had a nice little set of accompaniments: pickled onions and fennel, plus a sun-dried tomato. The sun-dried tomato was a great idea. With these bistro burgers having so much flavor and juiciness already, the intense tomato flavor works really well. Also some of the better fries of the survey, second to Castagna’s.
I think the best burger so far has been Wildwood’s. They put this nice pesto on the bread. The burger actually had a char flavor to it (which I prefer and think should always occur if they say it’s grilled). The bun is housemade with poppy seed and sesame seed. And it was by far the juiciest burger of them all. There were literally juices flowing down my arm. Very flavorful, too. Fries were decent, but not in the range of good. They had nice flavor and were evenly cut with skins on, but they were only slightly crisp — not even as crisp as your average fast food joint. The burger includes an aioli and they cook the red onions a bit instead of just giving them raw. A nice touch.
On grinds: I think it depends. I like all of them. Higgins has a really smooth grind. Some places put extra bits, like onions, in with the meat. Some places use sirloin and so it’s almost more finely chopped than ground.
DB, I’m not saying Castagna’s burger is small, but if you’re going to compare value, theirs doesn’t hold up to several of the others because it’s a smaller burger (though still substantial) and is still more expensive.
I guess we are all entitled to our favorites, which I respect. It’s just that when it comes to anything at this point in my life.. I would rather pay for quality than quantity.. and that’s what the Castagna burger offers… but in the end.. it’s ALL good. :). It’s our love for food that keeps us opinionated.
I would argue that all these burgers I mentioned are as good or better — just on quality — than Cafe Castagna’s as well.
I actually don’t like burgers that have a huge amount of meat. It is all about the overall balance/ratio of ingredients. Do you have the ability to set up a survey of users on your site? It would be very interesting as you have some savvy readers.
As I recall caramelization and the Maillard effect are two related, but different things. I have to admit, I was a bit thrown when you mentioned it in conjunction with Burger King. For a moment I thought you were going to say they were the best. I have to admit I haven’t been to Wildwood in several years as my last few meals there showed a huge decline in quality. I know Nancy was there a few months ago and thought it was nothing special. I’m going to have to put it on my list and give it another try. Until then, my money goes to Cafe Castagna.
Okay, now that I have actually looked at the list, I do have a few issues.
1. Daily cafe I have only had breakfast but have never been impressed. I live near it and don’t bother.
2. Mothers - Never ever had a decent meal there.
3. Papa Haydn - Just say no to mass produced poorly balanced desserts.
4. I’d put Nuestra Cocina way ahead of Taqueria Nueve.
5. Gotham over Clarklewis
6. Love Southpark’s wine list, but have never had a memorable meal there.
ON MAILLARD:
Well, caramelization is a false term. It’s a term people use to describe something, but it’s not really what’s happening. I mean, how often do you hear the term Maillard effect tossed around? I’m not sure if it’d ever be used without On Food and Science and Good Eats. Caramelization is more a description of what *looks* like is taking place, but it’s not sugars turning into caramel on a burger. But that browning process is what I’m talking about. That’s why I put it in quotes, btw.
But the principle remains the same. More surface area browned (rather than greyed) equal more flavor in general with a burger. And then, additionally, I prefer a charred burger with grill marks, which adds another dimension. btw, I’d have to double-check my notes, but I think either Ken’s or Wildwood’s had a nice smokiness to it, too, that none of the others seemed to have.
ON WILDWOOD:
I’ll hear that sort of thing and then pop on over and have another great meal. I do know that several wine lovers have complained about their wine service and glassware, but since I don’t drink that never comes up for me. I have heard others say that in the recent past they thought it had gone downhill, but has been on an upswing over the last year or so. Honestly, though, I haven’t noticed a trend either way. (Except maybe an improvement in pastries in the last couple years.) I only go about every 2 or 3 months, though, for dinner, with occasional extra pop-ins for dessert or lunch.
I’ve got to go through Nancy’s articles some time and find out what place has impressed her. ;-) Maybe it’s just that Portland can’t live up to LA or maybe it’s that stylistically Portland is too distant from LA.
1. Actually, I think Daily Cafe has gone downhill a bit, but I still like their fixed price format and they still do a pretty good, but inconsistent, job. I think most breakfast places in Portland that are highly regarded don’t quite deserve the accolades, though.
2. I’m really surprised you’ve never had a good meal at Mother’s. Maybe you just don’t like the style of food? I don’t think I’ve ever had a bad dish at Mother’s. It is what it is and it would be unfair to compare it to Paley’s, but then the prices are half those of Paley’s, too.
3. Mass produced? Some items are better than others and they have tendency towards sweetness, but they do a good job with the style of desserts — mostly standard cakes and tarts — that they’re making. And the selection alone is impressive.
4. I have a couple problems with Nuestra, though I like it nearly as much as Nueve. 1) their appetizers are generally poor values and often poor quality. They’ve gone downhill since they first opened. And sometimes they’re actually bad. I had a terrible ceviche there once. Whereas Nueve’s ceviches are second best I’ve had in Portland. 2) Nueve is much better about rotating their menu. 3) Nueve does a much better job with desserts. Nuestra’s are often misconceived and poorly executed. I do like the fact that Nuestra has hand made tortillas, though.
5. I agree, but it seemed a bit early.
6. I agree, but the pickings are slim for seafood restaurants in Portland. The best seafood is at the normal restaurants. The ones that specialize in seafood are all rather mediocre really. The whole M&S empire could do so much better. They have lots of great choices and quality fish, but the preparations are lame, usually. Almost amateurish. There’s certainly no Winterborne anymore. What else is there? Salty’s? Newport Bay? McGrath’s? Charthouse? I bunch of other mediocre chains.
Recently my sweetie has taken to bemoaning the lack of solid Italian food in our metro area. What do you all recommend? He says the issue is snobbery-he wants some solid food with out the solid ‘tude.
I am unhappy with no serious seafood joint. I gotta agree with Nick on that.
Banana Lee, what does your hubby have as a reference point for good Italian? That’s often the real question. Honestly, I think Portland is overflowing with Italian, especially for its size, except east-coast style, Sopranos-style, Italian.
In the more regional category, try: Alba, Genoa, Mingo, Tuscany Grill, Bastas, Pazzo, Serratto, Basilico. If you want Italian mixed with NW, try clarklewis or Gotham Bldg Tavern.
If you want east-coast, I think the clear winner is Mama Mia’s. It’s a big step up from Maccaroni Grill and the like. Gino’s has some decent dishes, too.
Re Maillard: I do beg to differ with you that caramelization is a false term. Caramelization is when sucrose reaches very high temperatures, melts, and then starts to decompose ñ different sugars are formed, sugars break apart, and then some of these rejoin. Of course this doesnít have much to do with meat or the Maillard reaction which is composed of the reaction between sugars and proteins which produces ìcaramel-tastingî brown products at much lower temperatures. Caramelization should be reserved for the browning of sugar in the absence of protein.
I had a vague pronoun reference in there. That’s what I meant: in regards to *meat*, it’s a false term. Obviously it would be ridiculous to say that in making caramel there is no caramelization, eg. But the term is used often in regards to meat, especially burgers and steaks, to refer to the color change which also often includes the development of a crust that’s in some ways reminiscent of burning sugars. Plus meat’s sweetness seems to increase through Maillard. btw, I meant to refer to On Food and Cooking, which, btw, is on sale right now at Powell’s:
http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=4-0684800012-1&partner_id=28368
Yeah, I have it already… great book. I find it funny that it is recommended with “Don’t Shoot the Dog: The New Art of Teaching and Training”. Sigh. I’ve read it to my dog three times and it didn’t do any good.