A Streetcar on Hawthorne?
A few days ago I noted the delivery of new streetcars for the existing Portland Streetcar line. Sam Adams’ proposed Broadway-Couch couplet and development plan features a proposed streetcar as part of the deal.
Today I read over at Portland Transport that there’s now a website and group formed to study the possibilities for a streetcar line to run on Hawthorne. The website (it’s really a grassroots effort, not any sort of official study or city project) is at HawthorneStreetcar.org — it looks like there’s a lot of website framework there, although I found it a bit confusing once I got to the front page to figure out where I would go to start reading about the plans.
Personally I haven’t spent enough time in the Hawthorne corridor to know if this is a good idea or not… but I’d love to learn more. One thing I hope to see from the website is an RSS feed so that folks can easily subscribe and be aware of new information as its posted. In the meantime, you can check out the website and if you have an interest, get involved.
man, by the way, what a great wonky website that portland transport.
i guess the story is that the line will get a cold reception, cause traditionally the lines are paid for by keeping the tax money from development theoretically spurred by building a streetcar. since hawthorne is near “built” the line wont be able to be built with that financing scheme.
Considering the the reason Hawthorne is built up in the first place is because it was a line on the original streetcar network, I think it deserves one now.
There was a link in that last comment that got filtered. Here: http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?a=gfgih&c=dgebg
I’d love to see one on Lombard Street in St. Johns, too.
Riddle me this: Where the HELL are they gonna fit a streetcar on Hawthorne? They can’t even comfortably fit a bus if there are cars parked and people in other lanes. I personally hate driving down Hawthorne, and as a result I don’t spend much time there. I don’t think the streetcar will answer that problem. At least if it was Division or Powell there’s enough space you could give a little to something like the streetcar. But Hawthorne? Hardly.
What can a streetcar offer Hawthorne that Tri-Met’s buses don’t already? A streetcar line over there would be costly to build, take up too much room and, in the end, do the same thing a few bus lines can while remaining flexible.
Hi all - thank you for posting a link to the HawthorneStreetcar web site. I am the webmaster there and the person who is trying to get the group going.
Some of the questions that have been asked above are answered in the “Purpose and Need” form post over at HawthorneStreetcar.org, but I’d like to answer a couple of them directly, here:
Banana Lee Fishbones wrote “Where the HELL are they gonna fit a streetcar on Hawthorne? They can’t even comfortably fit a bus if there are cars parked and people in other lanes.”
This is precisely one of the arguments in favor of a streetcar: The 9.5ft lane widths on Hawthorne are the narrowest for any major street in the city. A standard transit bus, mirror to mirror, is wider than the lane. A number of the problems with traffic on Hawthorne are caused by buses frequently crossing lane markings.
Streetcars are narrower than buses (but much longer, holding more passengers), and move on fixed rails. While fixed rails can sometimes be a disadvantage in terms of flexibility, in tight spaces where a number of modes share the road, this predictability of movement and clear demarcation of space helps all modes move more smoothly.
The existing streetcar on 10th/11th has proven that, with a little bit of care, streetcars can coexist with pedestrians, parked cars, and bikes.
Brandon wrote: “What can a streetcar offer Hawthorne that Tri-Met’s buses don’t already?”
The #14 bus that serves Hawthorne is very overcrowded at peak hour, and serves 8800+ riders a day, about as many people as now ride the downtown streetcar.
During peak hours, headways are very narrow, which leads to bunching. This diminishes capacity, ruins predictability, and slows down the entire route.
A streetcar system can carry more passengers with fewer vehicles, and can maintain more consistent times between vehicles. The much larger streetcar can accommodate more persons with more elbow room, and 3 boarding doors per side facilitates shorter dwell times at stops. Fewer transit vehicles accommodating more passengers also reduces conflicts with other traffic.
As for the “flexibility” of bus routes, how much flexibility do you need? The route followed by the buses along Hawthorne is basically the same as that used by the original streetcar in the late 1800’s through the mid 1930’s. This is a very well established transit corridor that isn’t going to pack up and move overnight. The point of streetcars is to provide a higher quality, higher capacity service.
- Bob R.
Amen to what Bob R. says. Also, for many of us, the streetcar is just a lot more inviting than a bus. It may not even be rational, but it just feels a lot more fun to ride and I think it’d encourage more people to leave the car at home when they head over to Hawthorne or downtown for shopping or other errands, not just for commuting.
Aaron wrote: “One thing I hope to see from the website is an RSS feed so that folks can easily subscribe and be aware of new information as its posted.”
OK, I spent today being a geek, and have written a script for the site that generates RSS feeds. This is my first stab at feeds, but they seem to be working OK in IE7. They are available from the main menu and a couple of other places on the site. Let me know if it works for you.
- Bob R.
History does repeat itself apparently… Weren’t there streetcars on Hawthorne once upon a time..?? I like streetcars and think they are neat but the cost involved is so expensive compared to buses. Buses cost a fraction of what streetcar/lightrail does. People selling streetcar transit have deep pockets. They just put a good sales spin on things.
Did we need a lightrail tunnel to go thru the West Hills..?? NO! I was on the Westside Lightrail Committee and there was viable discussion to send the light rail line out Barbur Blvd then onto Beav-Hillsdale Highway into Beaverton at a fraction of the taxpayers cost. We were shot down so fast though by the lobbyist that had to build a tunnel. The Barbur Blvd option could also provide easy light rail expansion into Tigard, Lake Oswego and Wilsonville.
Wait!! This was the route that there was a trolley line once upon a time. History didn’t repeat itself though
Brian wrote: “People selling streetcar transit have deep pockets.”
Perhaps some do… I don’t. I have done this of my own initiative. I don’t want to get into an argument about income, but if it helps, I have a 1 year old compact sedan and a 17 year old van with a sagging headliner. You be the judge.
Regarding costs, it is true that streetcars have a high capital cost to install (a pity that they were ripped out in the first place), but this cost is significantly less per track-mile than light rail. Streetcar vehicles last about triple the length of time as a bus, and can carry twice as many passengers per operator.
Over time, these operational cost savings (as well as other efficiencies due to faster performance and faster boarding times that come along with streetcars) offset some (but not all) of the capital investment.
Beyond that, where streetcars are used a development catalyst (and I realize this is a subject of heated debate), additional revenues can be created in the form of a local improvement district or tax increment financing to offset capital costs further.
The end result is still more expensive than buses, but gets higher ridership and provides a higher-quality level of service and improves livability and the business climate in the corridor.
- Bob R.
Brian wrote: “People selling streetcar transit have deep pockets.”
To clarify, I was referring not to the patrons but the civic planners and lobbyists that push for the streetcar and lightrail project. I respect your view though!
An example of the waste can be seen on the N. Portland light rail line. These trains are rarely being used at capacity. This was a huge investment for a small return. Hopefully, the city of Vancouver will vote on a light rail exention into Washington.
I am very much pro-lightrail and streetcar. I believe that realistic costs need to be considered when planning to maximize the financial return. Sometimes that means perhaps deciding against a light rail or streetcar line.